Overheard in Committee — Estimating Class Rank
We Admit It! Committee is a long, drawn-out, painstaking process. But it’s also an exciting, fun, rewarding process. It’s what helps us round out the incoming class and reminds us why we do what we do. This week we press on. Each day we dig deeper into applications and we learn about new students. So without further ado, here’s what was overheard in committee today.
“Does the school give us any indication of where the student falls in the class?”
You can hear this question in committee multiple times each day. It’s part and parcel of that all-important school context we’ve talked about numerous times in our Overheard in Committee blog series (as well as numerous other blogs about our process). Fewer than 40% of the students who apply to W&M report a specific class rank. And that’s fine. We understand why schools choose not to rank, and we don’t disadvantage students who don’t have a specific rank. But when we can estimate rank it’s helpful to us in assessing the student’s academic record.
Many schools will provide us some contextual information based on your GPA. For example, the Common Application’s Secondary School Report allows counselors to indicate a decile (the student is in the first decile/top 10% or second decile/top 20%) or an estimated rank (approximately top 15%). It also allows them to provide the high GPA for your class. Or counselors may in their recommendations say this student “is near the top of her class.” Or school profiles may provide a GPA distribution via quartile or quartile ranges or they might plot GPAs on a graph.
We’re not beholden to an exact number or even an estimated rank. Again, it just provides context to your transcript so that we can get a sense of how well you are performing within your school environment. A 4.2 GPA doesn’t mean much without that context. If the high GPA for the class is a 4.3 that tells us the student is at the top of their class. Or if on the secondary school report, the counselor estimates that rank to be about the top 25% of the class, well that gives us context also. And this context doesn’t exist within a vacuum. We then consider that information within the greater context of your schools (its courses/programs, competitiveness, grading scale, etc.).
As we review applications we try to collect all of the information we can glean from what’s submitted on a student’s behalf before making a decision. Knowledge is power right? The more we know the more informed our decision on your application can be.
And with that, we press on.
Wendy Livingston ’03, M.Ed. ‘09
Associate Dean of Admission
Comments are closed on posts older than one year, but we still want to hear from you. If you have a comment or question for us, please email admission@wm.edu.
I believe in fairfax county the high schools don’t rank but the counselors do check off if the child is taking the most rigorous curriculum the school offers and provides a school profile.
@Meghan, the Common App’s Secondary School Report asks all counselors to rate the strength of the student’s curriculum and that’s helpful to us when reviewing any application. And yes, Fairfax schools don’t rank (but normally do provide a high GPA for the class) and do provide a school profile (we are very familiar with all Fairfax schools).
I’ve heard that the students that were admitted to Early Decision received an email a few days ago saying that Regular Decision applicants would be notified about their decision status very, very soon. Does this mean decisions are coming out tonight? How close are you to finishing?
@Jen, ED students received an email saying that others would “soon” be receiving their decisions. There was no “very” before it. Decisions are not being released tonight. They will be released by April 1. We cannot pinpoint an exact date/time until we literally push the proverbial button and send the emails.
@Jen, as someone who just went through the process of Early Decision with William and Mary, I know exactly the anxiety/excitement you’re feeling! And, as learned from experience, you won’t know how soon the decisions will come out until just a bit before they’re released. Being patient is one of the hardest things to do especially when you’re waiting on arguably the biggest moment of your life thus far. April 1st is right around the corner, though! Best of luck!
We realize that students are anxious to hear from us. And we’re anxious to release decisions. But we need to be true to our process. We need to be thoughtful and thorough and that takes some time. We appreciate everyone’s patience. As @AcceptedED said, April is right around the corner.
What if you are in a private school where there are a large portion of excelling students so top 25% is more comparable to top 10% within public schools? The top % in a class is all relative to the type of school you attend. I know we have magnet schools around here too.
I know kids who failed out of my school during freshman year and before grades were distributed transferred so it wouldn’t hurt their transcripts. They are top 10% at their current school and were in their middle school but couldn’t hack my school. Happens very often (we lose 20% of those admitted due to the difficulty).
So that could be like taking a Harvard student in the top 50% of his class and saying he didn’t make top 10% of his class so we won’t accept them as a transfer…..
Thanks. I’m sure schools are some how ranked so admissions counselors know the caliber.
Such a difficult job you have.
@rick, as we mentioned in this blog, rank is part of our consideration of a greater school context. We consider grades, rigor of courses, rank, etc. all within the context of the student’s individual school. We’ve also written several blogs on this subject. (http://blogs.wm.edu/2013/11/21/overheard-in-committee-the-high-school-profile-edition/. Keep in mind there are very competitive public schools and not-so-competitive private schools. Being private or public doesn’t by itself convey the caliber of a high school.
And if a student fails out of a school there will be some record of that in their application.
I saw you do take into account other things. I would just suggest that school gets ranked first so the first thought isn’t quite so negative that a kid wasn’t top 10%.
Since applying too colleges I now have some regrets on my school choice which was chosen for it’s academic and athletic rigor. Comparisons are not done by my school for a reason and now I find that colleges look at these rankings regardless.
I know it was the correct decision for academics. Just not for admission to college.
oops I was posting before seeing your reply.
What is frustrating is seeing students get into Natl Honor Society, varsity sports, and Ivies who couldn’t hack my school as freshman but their grades look like they improved but the schools they attend are so much easier. The kids look great on paper though. These are friends who keep us attuned to how easy their school is and how the best thing they did is drop out… I know in the end, we will be better off.
I know it will work out for me. As I hear some guys getting rejections and others getting acceptances and I’m still on a hot seat, it’s just difficult waiting. Today was very negative when my best friend didn’t get into his waitlisted school. Creating more frustration and the reason I stopped by the blog hoping to get some great news.
I know you do your best for the most well rounded students and I know there will be some mistakes and in the end things work out.
My parents tell me this is the first of many difficult decisions in my life. The waiting is the toughest part.
I am so looking forward to a great Spring Break and reason to come visit TCWM. Of course with another side trip to historic Williamsburgh and hopefully a stop in DC along the way. This time my trip to TCWM will be very different and i’ll be looking so much closer.
Thank you for being so helpful and inspiring.
@rick, we’re not sure what you mean by “I would just suggest that school gets ranked first so the first thought isn’t quite so negative that a kid wasn’t top 10%.” However know that we understand some schools are of such a high caliber that we gladly take students outside the top 10% from those schools. And being in the top 10% is not required to be admitted to W&M. Every student is considered individually and not beholden to any artificial cut-offs.
Know that the school you chose has likely given you many wonderful opportunities and has readied you for whatever college you attend regardless of what admission decisions you receive.
I just mean that when a counselor looks, the order of criteria shouldn’t be top 10%.
If they look to top 10% first and see a kid didn’t make it, it starts out negative but then seeing within a schools rank secondarily. Vs. Seeing a schools ranking first and then the system shouldn’t say top 10% but know top 15% is the equivalent.
Psychology class has taught me that looking at something in a certain order can negatively effect outcomes. Regardless that you believe that you are not. It’s just our mind sets. So I’m just suggesting that school caliber should be a higher priority in the review of a student and already know that the ranking should be different.
So for example, the Harvard transfer. I’m sure Harvard is ranked extremely high and that the system should know prior to looking at ranking that they should be looking for top XX not top 10%. As if the mental criteria is always 10% in people’s minds, it’s not trying to pass someone on but, already set that they met the criteria.
Harvard is easy example while smaller schools admission staff may not know off the top of their heads to look and say it’s top 15%.. Looking at so many students, it’s got to be difficult. This way it’s always the positive mindset and not a oh, he/she didn’t get top 10%, I need a reason if I move them on so let me see how his/her school is ranked.
Hopefully I made some sense.
Thanks for listening.
@Rick, we think we understand you. We don’t have any ordered criteria in our process. It’s not as if we look at a particular component first and make a snap judgment. Likewise, there’s no mathematical formula to our process so it’s not as if we see a class rank and assign it a weight that determines the decision we make. And we read every application twice regardless of rank/standardized test scores to complete a thorough and holistic review.
We can tell you that one of the reasons we have regional deans is so that our reads can provide the context you’re talking about. It’s the regional dean’s job to know the schools in his/her area and to evaluate grades/program/rank within school context.
Remember, high schools aren’t ranked and of course, how people view individual high schools is subjective and likely to vary based on audience. But we do our best to use objective criteria to evaluate strength of a high school and then an individual’s performance therein.
I was accepted early decision and got the email about receiving an updated packet but am yet to get it. Is there something I should do or could it still just be in the mail.
@W&M 2014, those packets were mailed late last week so it’s on its way to you. If you’re not close to campus, no doubt it’s still in the mail.
I know people keep asking this, so I apologize if I’m being repetitive, but do you have a better idea of when the decisions will be released? I’m very excited! 🙂
@Kelly, we will actually post a blog about this question tomorrow. We don’t. We truly won’t know we’re ready to release decisions until we in fact release decisions. See our blog tomorrow. We just ask people be patient for a little bit longer.
I have a student who was accepted ED (happy dance!), and wanted to offer a couple of thoughts. First, those fat envelopes are starting to hit mailboxes so if yours hasn’t arrived yet it should in a day or two. Second, it is so hard to read an informative blog post and not personalize, analyze, and hyper-focus on any bit of information you feel may not present in your favor. I’m here to tell you people do get accepted outside of the top 10%, from NoVa, from schools that clearly report rank (no fuzzy deciles). This is ONE aspect of a large application package. At includes four years of an academic record, course rigor, ECs, accomplishments, essays, LORs, your GC report, scores, your interview if you had one…it all adds up! Best of luck to the RD candidates, almost time!! Many thanks to WM Admissions for keeping everyone informed!
Great perspective @WM2018Parent. Just a quick note however to clarify. The fat envelopes from W&M haven’t been sent yet for RD candidates (they were sent to ED admits last week though). We release decisions via email and then also mail the fat envelopes when the time comes.
Good day! I am an international RD applicant. As I eagerly awaiting positive news from W&M, I unexpectedly found a mistake in my application material. That is, I wrongly fill in the credit value (2/4) for my current year courses since our school doesn’t have a credit system. Although my counselor has uploaded a complete school profile through the Naviance, I still doubt my mistakes will cause some unnecessary misunderstanding. Shall I write an e-mail to the Admission office to clarify that?
PS: I am very sorry to trouble you by asking such “outdated” question but I really don’t want to let such avoidable faults block me out of my dream school!
@Dreaming of W&M, no need to worry. We don’t really use the credit information. We just look at the classes you’re taking. Since how credit is counted varies so much from school to school it’s not something we take into consideration. So no need to write us or worry about this.
Well, that’s a reassuring answer! And since there is a complete school profile, the admission won’t look at the rank and GPA reported on the common application form right? (Because our school doesn’t rank student yet the blank on that form is required, my counselor ask us to just randomly fill one….hope that won’t hurt too!)
Thank you very much for your patience!
@Dreaming of W&M, we do pay attention to what a counselor puts on a school report form as we figure they would input accurate information regarding GPA and rank. Counselors can just fill in “NA” when there is no rank.
Dear Admission Committee members,
Thank you for paying attention to my comment. I loved William and Mary since my first visit! That visit was in my freshman year of high school, and I was in the Model UN conference held by the College back then.
I would like share some of my information with you before I actually submit my apllications in fall. I am in a highly competitive public high school in Maryland. My unweighted GPA in my school for the past 3 years is about 3.75. My school have a document says that, 21% of our past senior classes has GPA above 3.5. My school doesn’t rank but does these some what make sense I am in the top 10% of the class? I am also an international student, so I am not that strong in standardized test. I am trying to boost my standardized tests this summer, and hopefully get to the mid 50% range of the college by fall.
As for my academic interest, I really would like to major in Environmental Science and Policy(Science track) and a minor in International Relations, if possibly. In the past academic year, I took two AP classes that have strong affiliations to these two areas — Environmental Science and Comparative Government and Politics. I have also written a research paper on the topic of Air Quality of Beijing (with some help from my AP Environmental Science teacher), and trying to publish it by September.
Lastly, I think I will probably apply for Early Decision. I really love the school! I hope to see you next summer!
Thank you again for reading my comment.
Sincerely,
A student that loves College of William and Mary.
@LoveW&M, we’re glad you’re so interested in William & Mary. We’d encourage you to continue taking AP courses during your senior year and to take them in subjects that are both in and outside your comfort zone. We do not admit by major so we like to see students who are doing well in challenging courses across the board. Additionally, as an international student, we’d encourage you to take the TOEFL. That can be helpful as we understand that the SAT/ACT present unique challenges to non-native English speakers. The TOEFL can help to supplement the more traditional standardized testing.
Thanks for the reply! As for your advices in challenging courses, my thoughts are below. For math, I have taken AP Calculus AB this year. I will take AP Statistics in the next school year. I think I could sign up for AP Physics 1 (I currently signed up for Honors Physics, I think I can change it) for the next school year. Also, thank you for your reassurance in standardized tests. I am going take TOEFL at least once in the summer, depends on my score. I am aiming for a 105-110. Lastly, would you mind answer my previous post’ question of class rank? Thank you again.
@LoveW&M, we’re not quite sure what you’re asking as the part about class rank in your previous post. Are you asking us if you’re in the top 10%? We can’t answer that until we receive your application and your transcript, high school’s profile and secondary school report. Additionally if a weighted GPA is provided we will look at that rather than an unweighted figure. Even with that info we may not be able to determine a precise rank but we will do our best to get context for it.
It seems I am too rush on this issue, never mind. Thank you for your patience!
@LoveW&M, it’s perfectly ok to think about your rank. Know that once we receive your application materials we will do our best to put that information into context and to give you all due credit if we are able to determine that you are in the top 10%.