Overheard in Committee: Testing Isn’t Everything
Admit It! Now that you’ve gotten a taste of what goes on inside of Committee, you want more. We know that those going through the admission process often feel like the whole thing is a toss-up, that the selection process is one shrouded in secrecy. Our goal with the “Overheard in Committee” blog series is to provide some insight, to unshroud the process, to reveal some of its secrets. So for those of you eager for more, here you go.
Overheard in Committee today: “The best thing about this application is the testing.”
We were reviewing an applicant whose SAT and ACT scores (they had taken both exams) were outstanding. The student had a 1520 SAT (Critical Reading + Math) and a 33 ACT composite. However, every other aspect of the application fell a bit flat. The rigor of their coursework felt light, especially given the potential exhibited in their test scores. The student took AP classes but fewer than we’d expect given the school’s offerings, and they had avoided some of the really challenging classes: they had opted to stop Spanish after the third level, they had never taken calculus despite taking pre-calculus in the 10th grade and scoring a 720 on the math portion of the SAT and they weren’t taking any science in their senior year. With a mix of As and Bs they were barely in the top 10% of their class. Their extracurricular activities were okay but lacked distinction. Their recommendations and essays were satisfactory, but nothing above and beyond what we see in most applications we review. In the end, the most and truly only compelling part of their application was their standardized test scores.
Clearly this student has some innate intelligence and academic aptitude as shown in their SAT and ACT results. But that potential wasn’t replicated in other aspects of their application. If it had been, they’d likely have been admitted, easily. As it was, the Committee felt the student should be waitlisted.
We are in the process of building a class. We want students who will contribute to all aspects of life at W&M (both in and out of class). We want students who will challenge their peers, who will impact their classmates and hall mates, who will add perspective and energy to our campus. With so many great students vying for a limited number of spaces, we just didn’t feel this applicant measured up.
There are some students who we admit because their academic merits are truly outstanding. There are other students whose personal qualities compel us to admit them even though their academic merits aren’t quite as strong as others. Then there are those students who are strong in both arenas and we admit some of them too. It’s about bringing together the best of all aspects of our applicants. Yes, great testing is a start. But great testing doesn’t put you on the fast track to admit (likewise subpar testing doesn’t put you on the fast track to deny). Testing, like every other application component, is one part of many. It alone does not make or break an application. We read every application twice and convene Committee so we can craft a class that reflects the best of the best across all academic and personal qualities. In this applicant’s case strong testing but few other compelling qualities got them only so far.
More to come as we continue our deliberations.
Wendy Livingston ’03, M.Ed. ‘09
Associate Dean of Admission
Comments are closed on posts older than one year, but we still want to hear from you. If you have a comment or question for us, please email admission@wm.edu.
Hi! Are you guys going to do similar blog posts when you review the transfer applications? Just curious. Thanks!
@Emily, yes we do. If you search “transfer committee” or “Overheard in Transfer Committee” you’ll find previous blogs on that matter and we’ll do blogs again when we get to that stage in April.
I chose not to self-report my test scores and instead just sent in my official scores–I just didn’t want to accidently report my scores incorrectly. Does that make a difference to the committee?
My daughter chose to take 3 AP and 3 honors classes her senior year, the stress of classes and the college process is difficult but this blog makes it clear: stay the course! Thanks for looking at the whole picture.
@Addy, it shouldn’t. In fact, the only scores we accept are those sent officially.
@Jjcp, our pleasure. Students have to make course and extracurricular decisions that are best for them at the time. In comprehensive review processes such as ours, no one decisions/class/activity alone will be the reason a student is or is not admitted.
What if the school did not allow a child to take an AP class?
For example my child was not allowed into AP Calc as he didnt’ get a 95 in honors Geometry (one bad grade when he was very sick caused 1 bad semester making his honors Geo grade a 92, drop that grade and he had the necesarry average). Historically, a 92 would have been good enough to gain admission and this year it became a moving target, more kids got in from standard and they are not doing well so the school learned but it’s too late for my son). He was sick his Jr year. In Honors calc he has 100+ average so it looks on paper that he didn’t step it up but, he tried in all his vain to get into AP Calc and the school ignored his numerous requests. He took as many AP classes as he could without the AP calc that he really wanted and doing very well. He did send semester grades There is no way that TCWM admissions would know this.
Should he do something, like write a supporting letter or is it too late and decisions are just being finalized?
Another question that I think my son erred on his application as there was no guidance from Common App when he called. The common App asks for time commitment for something. For example a varsity sport that in the season it’s 5+ hours a day and 8-12 hours on weekends (sometimes the whole weekend). My son used an average over a year for giving time commitment as the common app did not specify. His counselor said she agreed. I question if he should have used the season time commitment? He leaves early for work outs, stays till 7/8pm for practice and has weekends for tournaments and such so free time was extremely limited for him. In my sons case averaging over a year makes his commitment look less as he did 3 true full time committed sports. Lucky if he was home by 7pm most nights and up and out by 7am.
Since I have another son applying soon, I want to know what mistakes he should avoid as i feel it may be too late for my first son. So any help is much appreciated.
What a job you have. We appreciate all you do. Thank you.
(I don’t like posting my name and assume that admissions can ID people from email addresses).
Once again Thank you.
@BM, no worries about being anonymous. That’s fine (that being said even if you did put your real name we wouldn’t look you or your student up). This blog is about free an open communication.
As for calc, we obviously won’t know the backstory if your son or his counselor didn’t provide it. That being said it sounds like he did take calc, just not AP Calc. We evaluate the overall strength of a student’s schedule. The presence or absence of one class doesn’t make or break a student’s application.
As for time commitment in the EC section, there’s no right or wrong way to do that. We know varsity sports take quite a bit of time while in season. Generally, we recommend that a student, for sports reports the hours per week in season and then for the weeks per year only notes the weeks the sport is in season but whatever a student chose to report is fine. We are familiar with varsity sports programs and know that they are quite a time commitment.
Thanks for another quick response.
Last question. My son wants to move to VA. If the worst case happens, and he doesn’t gain admission. Can he move there and take part time classes and reapply for spring 2015 or Fall 2015 and those classes transfer in?
I’m realizing now, that the cost of school is so great that why spend the money on another college when he plans on a transfer to VA? To pay for an apartment and part time classes would probably save me money in the long run and he would at least be where he wants to be and getting the feel of campus and VA life.
He has thought about this openly and I can’t give him an answer. The other option is he stays home and works and applies in 2015.
He has passed on some sports scholarships waiting to hear and since he only applied to a few schools, the others are not his dream. He probably should have applied to JMU too but it’s too late.
What would these scenarios look like to an admissions counselor working a year at home, part time student at a local residence? or any other suggestion?
Once again. Thanks.
@BM, if not admitted he won’t be able to take classes at W&M. He can reapply but only as a transfer from another college. Additionally, keep in mind that it’s very tough to gain Virginia residency (assuming he’d still be your dependent for tax purposes). His residency is tied to yours and therefore moving to VA would not necessarily make him an in-state student.
If a student isn’t admitted, generally they will only gain admission after reapplying if something changes (generally new academic information such as enrolling elsewhere and showing us college courses/grades, or an interesting gap year experience). Unfortunately, taking a year to work, while fine, wouldn’t change the application we saw already and therefore we wouldn’t make a different decision.
Not trying for residency. Just thought that being a part time student and getting great grades could help. So there is no part time students and that wouldn’t help if he aced his classes he took there or maybe at another local college?
I just don’t feel that paying $50-60k for him to go to a school he doesn’t plan on staying at makes sense fiscally. Especially as I know many classes don’t transfer between schools.
We still have a month, he has a great shot of admission so I’m hoping this is just worries. I as the parent, erred when not allowing him to apply to more schools. He has friends who applied to 10-25 schools and it’s sad as some we know gained admission by the postcards and have no true interest (they never even visited). To apply to a place you don’t want to attend, I feel hurts everyone. The fact that counselors allowed this saddens me. I wouldn’t let him join that group.
I mean HS counselors not college admission counselors…. I realize college counselors can’t control it….
@BM, if not admitted to W&M, you can take summer classes (open to anyone who’s interested) but cannot take classes during the academic year. This helps us keep class size small and faculty-to-student ratios low. Certainly he could enroll elsewhere and apply as a transfer whether locally or not. And we do accept a lot of transfer courses. Courses basic to any curriculum (calc, intro to American history, microecon, etc.) will transfer as we offer those courses.
There’s nothing wrong with being smart about applications. And while we realize that some students who we admit likely aren’t interested, we do know that an admission offer can make them interested. As a school that doesn’t track interest, we just admit the best in our pool and hope those who are admitted explore W&M as an option.
So many of my daughter’s friends already seem to know where they will be going for college! She is waiting to hear from W&M and others. When do you expect admissions notices to go out?
@LaurenMT, we will release decisions by April 1 — pretty standard release date for selective colleges/universities. Because our process has so many moving parts, we don’t guesstimate a release date/time. We do however post a decisions blog as soon as they are. We do ask students and families to be patient and to not flood us with questions about a release date. Answering them only detracts from our ability to get decisions ready for release.
Hello. My son is a junior this year. W&M is his top choice and he has selected rigorous courses throughout high school. He recently has had a personal issue that has had an affect on his ability to concentrate and focus on his school work and his grades reflect that. When he applies this Fall should he address thus personal issue within his application? Or are there certain issues the committee would see in a negative light? The distraction is not a legal matter, he’s not in any sort of trouble at home or school.
@Kaybee, that is entirely up to your son. We generally encourage students to explain any anomaly or drop in grades. Otherwise, we just have to assume the courses were too challenging for the student. However, some students aren’t comfortable disclosing personal issues and we understand that. Counselors can also disclose if the applicant wishes them to.
My student’s school reports grades by trimester, not semester, and second trimester grades just came out. This is not a school with grade inflation (much like W&M) so even the best students have a mix of As and Bs. My student has noticeably improved grades this time around. Is it too late to send those grades? I hope he/she is competitive anyway, but that little boost would show he/she is not slacking away senior year. Or should I stop being a helicopter parent and just go eat chocolate? 🙂
@Tandy S, your student can certainly send the second trimester grades. At this point, we’re very close to the end of our process so they should be sent ASAP. And we certainly understand school context and take that into account. And no matter what, it’s always good to eat chocolate.
Wow, I didn’t expect to hear from you until Monday. Thanks so much. 🙂
Hello,
I applied regular decision and received the first email confirming receipt of my application. However, I have not received a second email verifying completion of my application. Please advise.
Many thanks,
Emily : )
@Emily, we’d advise you to call our office on Monday and inquire. Our guess is your application is in fact complete and some cyber glitch means you didn’t get the second email but always good to follow up and confirm.
Our daughter applied RD/out of state. We know the odds are against her – just a fact based on numbers. However the W&M blog and information provided on the web site has been very helpful —
l not only regarding the W&M admissions process, but to give us an idea how selective school’s approach admissions. Thanks for great communications. Impressive.
@Diane, we’re happy to help and glad you’ve found the information helpful.
oops – type-o… meant “schools”
You had mentioned in the blog post about how sub-par testing does not automatically break an application. If other sections of the application are strong, does the admissions committee take into account the additional information on an application that may explain reasons for poor testing?
@SLB, we review additional information if provided as part of the review of any application. So if that was included to provide information on any component of an application it will be reviewed and taken into account.
Hey Admit It, the tone of your blog posts are extremely condescending. How do you think the person mentioned in this post feels if they were to read it? I know you’re trying to be helpful, but there is nothing we can do about our applications now but stress, and the superior attitude of this blog is hurtful at times.
@Just A Thought, we appreciate your feedback. We’re sorry you feel that way. Our intent with these blogs is to show both those applications that we view positively and those that aren’t viewed as positively. We purposely make sure there’s no identifying information so as to not single out a particular student. In fact these blogs are all general meaning they highlight conversations we have routinely. We realize that whatever part of our review we discuss could cause some applicants to stress based on how the topic applies to their own app. That’s not our intent but certainly an outcome of what is inherently a stressful process.
As a parent going through the anxiety of the process with my child, I find this blog incredibly helpful and appreciate the patience and helpfulness with which questions are addressed. This is one of the few colleges that does this and it’s been really valuable. Thanks for putting yourself out there to provide this service!
Everyone take a deep breath. As a parent of a hopeful W&M student, I know this process can be very stressful. I have twins going through the college application process and April 1st can’t get here soon enough. Just know that this is out of our control now and have faith that regardless of the outcome our kids will be okay. I really do appreciate this blog and the Admission Staff keeping us posted on the process. You have a very tough job.
@Rhonda
Agree completely. As a parent, April 1st can’t seem to come fast enough but if we have made it this far we can wait a little longer. We are so close to the end so just think positively. Everything works out for the best.
@Beth, @Rhonda and @Meghan, we agree about April 1. It’s a light at the end of the tunnel for us all. And you’re right, it all works out in the end. It doesn’t always feel that way in the immediate aftermath but with so many great colleges out there students will land somewhere that’s a great fit. We appreciate the positive feedback and will continue to help out as the process winds down.
My daughter got her acceptance letter/package today from W&M. She is very excited!
@Maria, congrats to your daughter. We hope she decides to join the Tribe. Other readers, don’t panic. Decisions were sent only to our scholarship recipients. We have yet to make our general release for Regular Decision.
Does this mean that applicants who have not received an acceptance packet will not be offered scholarships?
@Ashley Woods, it likely does. The scholarship packages were mailed on Friday so some may still be on their way. And of course, as students continue to go through our review process they’re reviewed for scholarships. However, the bulk of those receiving awards were sent those decisions last Friday. Remember though this is not connected at all to financial aid.
I have been thinking about W&M Admissions a lot lately as my child is waiting anxiously for April 1. For this alumna, it is hard to realize that there is only a 1/3 chance my beloved child might get the opportunity to be part of the Tribe that I had so long ago–this is not something I can just give her. I cannot will it to happen. It’s stressful and fills me with anticipatory heartache. AND YET — this blog has made me feel good about the entire process. Your transparency, candor, and kindness here fill me with confidence — not that my child will necessarily be accepted, but that you are reading her application with care and respect. Thank you.
@Tandy, thanks for passing your love for the Tribe on to your child. We know, especially for those with a connection to W&M, this process and the eventual outcome can be a very emotional process. We wish your child all the best and we’re glad this blog has been helpful.
Hi. Were all of the W & M packages sent out last Friday for in state only applicants?
@Corinne K, last Friday we mailed decisions to our in-state and out-of-state scholarship recipients. As we said in an earlier comment, this is a tiny cohort of our Regular Decision admits.
My daughter is an out of state student. We were wondering if the Monroe Scholars have been selected and invited to participate in the program. I assume that all of the potential 1693 applicants have been selected. Could you confirm?
@Rose, see our comment from earlier today (6:41pm). The Monroe Scholar and William & Mary Scholar recipients were sent their decisions by mail last week. Of course, a few students will still be admitted to those programs as we conclude our review process. And yes, those invited to participate in the 1693 selection process were notified last month.
Remember, at the end of the freshman year, some students not named Monroes through the admission process are invited to apply to join the program as sophomores.
Just curious, how many applicants submit Arts supplements and how does this factor into the application process?
@Rhonda, we don’t run stats on students who make art submissions but we’d wager it’s a pretty small percentage of the applicant pool. We actually did an Overheard in Committee blog on this topic a few cycles ago (http://blogs.wm.edu/2011/11/21/overheard-in-early-decision-committee-the-saga-continues/). Check it out! It should help to illuminate that part of our review.
I sent in supplemental arts submissions on the common app and I am hoping it tipped the scale in my favor for W & M. I don’t think enough schools offer that option; it does give more of a complete picture, I think. Now I just want to know already!
@Corinne K, art submissions can certainly be a tip factor when they impress our faculty as our blog stated. Good luck to you!
Do you penalize students for not being well rounded/ being pointed. For example, being weaker in/ taking lower level math and science courses but taking every available AP English and history course and excelling in it?
@Jessica, we try our best to assess the overall rigor of a student’s academic performance. We understand that students will certainly have different strengths and interests. As a liberal arts university, we do ask students to stretch themselves across the curriculum where they can because they will be asked to take courses across the curriculum at W&M. This is not a requirement, merely a recommendation. If a student hasn’t taken advanced math/science it’s not that they’re assessed a penalty. We will just compare the overall strength of their application (including their transcript) to that of other students applying. Maybe your transcript will not be as strong as other applicants’ in math/science but it may be stronger elsewhere. Or your essay or testing may be stronger than those who have a more rigorous math/science track. Our process is about getting an overall sense of an individual applicant — it’s not a formula of you must do this in order to get admitted.