Decisions, Decisions — Deny Edition
You can Admit It! This stinks. (You are welcome to substitute other words for stinks that are inappropriate for us to proffer in this forum). We understand completely. And we agree. While we feel very honored to be a highly-selective university, we recognize that an unfortunate side effect of our process is that we must deny thousands of incredibly successful and talented students. We realize that very little, if anything, we say here can lessen the sting, but we hope this blog can help you understand our process and our decision.
Notice we say deny and not reject; this is a subtle but important difference. We in no way reject you. You were not at all wrong to apply. The students who we do not admit are more than capable of succeeding at William & Mary and would no doubt lend great qualities to our incoming class. And our decision is in no way a reflection of your intelligence, your accomplishments or your potential. It is instead a reflection of the incredibly competitive nature of our pool. No doubt you are in the upper echelons of your individual high school class. You took rigorous courses, you have top grades, top SAT/ACT scores and you hold top leadership positions. Now imagine students of your stature from every high school in every state, and in fact in many nations, are also applying to William & Mary. We aren’t looking at the full spectrum of students in our pool; we are only looking at the very high end of that spectrum application after application after application. We are only seeing applications from the nation’s best and brightest students. Therefore the students who we deny are still the best and brightest, they simply don’t stand out quite as much in our pool.
You may feel that students who deserved admission less were in fact admitted (maybe they had a lower class rank or lower standardized test scores). Please understand that we see little difference between the person ranked number 30 in the class and the person ranked say number 40 for example. We see very little difference between a 1300 and a 1340 (just throwing numbers out there). We may see differences in more subjective qualities like leadership potential, special talents, or unique and diverse backgrounds. Some subjective qualities are rarer in our pool. They therefore stand out more and are more sought after as we build our class. Regardless of our justification however, you may find these decisions unfair. We understand that. What we can tell you is that while the outcome may seem unfair, the process we used to reach it was fair. Your application received the exact same treatment as every other in our pool. Your application was read twice, by two different members of our staff. It was reviewed thoroughly from cover to cover by both readers. It was compared to the quality of other applicants in your cohort (your particular high school and either other in-state students or other out-of-state students).
At the end of the day, we have to admit some students, waitlist others and deny others. We’re incredibly sorry that your application could not have received a more favorable decision. Please feel free to say to heck with you W&M; I’m going to this school instead. We say congratulations and good for you. We know we have missed out on the opportunity to admit and enroll hundreds if not thousands of amazing students, you included. We thank you again for sharing your story with us, and we do regret that the outcome could not be different. We wish you all the best with your future endeavors.
Wendy Livingston ’03, M.Ed. ‘09
Associate Dean of Admission
Comments are closed on posts older than one year, but we still want to hear from you. If you have a comment or question for us, please email admission@wm.edu.
I appreciate all the blog posts throughout this very long painstaking process. I loved W&M, I still do. This outcome has been quite devastating. I feel like I should start informing my friends, taking down my William and Mary decorations, setting aside all my W&M gear and removing/informing my W&M facebook friends but Im not ready…but if not now when.
*when?
@Taylor, we’re so sorry the news couldn’t be better. We know that many of our applicants adore W&M and hope against hope to attend. We feel terrible not being able to make them all offers. The devastation will pass with time. Just take time to digest and internalize everything and then see how you feel. We wish you all the best.
So sad. It’s so unfortunate that my daughter visited 10 other schools, applied to 9 and liked none nearly as much as she liked W&M. It doesn’t help that she knows a handful of kids who got in and said they have no intention of going. They were told they had to apply by their parents. Yet she would have turned down every other school to go to W&M.
Our family invested a lot of emotional energy and resources into our daughter’s decision to make W&M her number one choice. Sadly, like Laura above, one of her classmates who gained acceptance has absolutely no desire to attend W&M and never had. I realize the selection process is tricky and burdensome and I applaud your staff for its informative and helpful posts. I do, however, feel puzzled by this result. I guess W&M’s loss will be the gain of the likes of McGill, Macalester, Reed, Scripps and Babson, to name a few.
Will you be releasing the statistics/numbers w regards to how many OOS apps vs IS apps, etc. Sort of helps ease the pain of the “denial” I would think to see concrete numbers of what OOS apps were up against. I suspect, and actually has been stated, what a large number of OOS applicants there are, and only 25-25% accepted. Also, how many of your ED applicants, who were deferred were actually admitted RD. A shame that kids who put all their effort into an ED application, be among a small pool actually admitted in the end. Not many kids put that out there so early in the year (from what I see at my daughters HS) and willing to say, “THIS is where I want to be”. But eh…its the way it works. And like I told my daughter, this time next year, you will be EXACTLY where you should be. Funny how life works out 🙂
@Laura and @Disappointed, we’re so sorry that we couldn’t offer your very deserving daughters a spot in the incoming class. We know the disappointment isn’t helped by a denied student knowing of admitted students who do not appreciate their admission offer. We unfortunately have to assume that anyone who takes the time to apply is at least moderately interested. We absolutely know that we lose out on incredibly talented and energetic students and we wish your daughters all the best.
@Momofsenior13, we release that information in August when the class is finalized and moves on to campus. We were up 3% in total applications this year and our admit rate stayed exactly the same so there were more students in our pool competing for the same number of spaces in the incoming class. As for ED defers specifically, it’s a select few who are eventually admitted. Unfortunately for them, the more students who enter the pool, the more competitive the process gets. Our hearts go out to them because we know how much they wanted to be at W&M. We always try to convey that your experience at another school will not be worse than it would have been at W&M. It will simply be different, possibly even better. You put it perfectly at the end of your post.
yes my daughter was an ED applicant and made it clear more than once that W&M was her first choice and she wanted it more than any other school. She visited several times, talked to students who go there, sent in supplemental materials. She gave many other schools a fair hearing so to speak but W&M just felt like “her fit” and teachers who have known her all of high school told her the same thing. You write that you have to assume that anyone who takes the time to apply is at “least moderately interested.” Not necessarily. She’s heard several kids (and yes she comes from a high-achieving school) say face-to-face, in-class, that they are not interested. Apparently for these high achievers, their parents told them they had to pick an in-state school to apply to; it was one more thing to cross off their list. According to them it’s not “their fit.” It’s more than disappointing @Disappointed, it’s actually heartbreaking.
@Laura, we certainly are aware that there are students who apply to W&M who may not be overly interested but if they take the time to complete our application that has to count for something. And as a school that does not track interest, there’s no way to tease out who’s interested from who’s not with the exception of Early Decision where we certainly understand those applicants’ desire to attend W&M. We also know from our current students that initially they were those students who applied only because they were told to but they ended up enrolling and absolutely loving the experience so we also know that we may be able to win over some of those initially uninterested applicants.
Regardless, we know nothing we can say can make this news feel any better or more fair and we do sincerely regret that.
@Laura…my son was also an ED applicant then deferred. His dream has been W&M and he has worked extremely hard to get there. Unfortunately he is OOS, from a very small school which ranks (does not weight and under 100 students in a rural district) which hurt him in comparison to the rigor of his course load (AP’s etc) compared to others in his class; good test scores and GPA; awesome extra curriculars and leadership positions – even was a national ROTC scholarship designee to W&M and his Principal communicated with admissions after the deferral (who in his tenure has never called a college in support of a student) and was denied and not even a waitlist spot to lessen the blow. In the end, it stung much more to see those who do not intend or really want W&M, and as a parent (and an admisnistrator at an Ivy League School) it has been a brutal experience to watch our kids disappointment. As I have told many students and have told my son, when one door closes another opens…and in the end it does not matter what the name is on your diploma but what you as a student ‘do’ with your four years where ever it may be.
@Paige, we did consider your son within the context of his school so the relatively fewer course offerings would not have hurt him. We did not compare his transcript to that of students who go to other schools where different classes are offered. That being said, we know that he and you must be extremely disappointed and upset and we are so sorry to be the cause of that. We truly appreciate your final sentiment and no doubt he will accomplish great things wherever he goes.
@Admit It – I completely understand the context of the school…and the number of course offerings…what I was referring to is simply this – there are many studies and thoughts (as I am sure you know) about class ranks especially for a class of under 300 which feel that class rank in the smaller context is not a good representation of a students achievements. Many feel that either smaller schools should weight GPA’s or simply do not rank. In this particular school district there are many students (not to imply this as a negative) who take what is needed, do not go after the harder (AP, Honors) etc to get to graduation….versus those students who challenge themselves. With a class size of 95 when you have a student with a 3.75 GPA and is 31st in the class – (5+ AP’s honors etc) it is not a good representation of the rigor versus all of those in this class. Top 30 plus percent (versus if they weighted or not rank) those students who challegened themselves with the more rigorous courses.
Thank you for all your updates through the process I think it is a great communication tool and more schools should do a similar blog!
@Paige, we’re right there with you. It’s frustrating when it seems that school policy can negatively impact something like rank or GPA. We do very much take into account when a GPA or rank is unweighted and try to account for that when reviewing that particular student. We also do sometimes wonder why schools with smaller populations rank because it can make a student look far deeper in the class than they actually are. But we do not question a school’s policy; they know that school best. We just do our best to put all of that thinking into the decisions we make.
@Admit It – the issue of ranking has been brought to the School Board President and hopefully they district will make changes and choose not to rank for the specific reason you state “wonder why schools with smaller populations rank because it can make a student look far deeper in the class than they actually are.” Thanks for stating this as it confirms exactly the issue at hand!
@Paige, that’s good to hear. At least it’s being addressed.
Can anybody give me an idea of the chances a student has in trying to transfer? I can’t seem to find any statistics on the chances of admission. My daughter also was deferred for ED then rejected yesterday. William and Mary has been her dream for literally the last 8 years. She applied ED thinking her chances increased for admission but it wasn’t made clear to her that being an out of state student her chances really didn’t increase. She’s ranked in the top 5% of her class, has taken 9 AP courses and involved in extracurricular activities. To say she’s devastated is putting it lightly. And as a parent, it hurts me even more knowing she is so upset. Unfortunately, she was wait listed for her 2nd choice which she is over qualified. When inquiring about this she was pretty much told they didn’t think she’d actually attend so they didn’t admit her. I know with time the disappointment will fade, but it really is a sad sad time right now.
Dear Admit it!,
In reference to my family’s posts (Paige), and to the general comments above I would just like to say (type) a word or two.
While I am extremely disappointed, I am not bitter. I still absolutely love W&M and I understand it is an extremely selective school. That said, as a differed student I took up the following philosophy:
“The brick walls are there for a reason. The brick walls are not there to keep us out. The brick walls are there to give us a chance to show how badly we want something.”
(― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture)
I feel very comfortable saying I did everything possile to break down the proverbial “brick Walls”. I did everything a student could possibly do to show that I am qualified, hard-working, intelligent, and a leader in the context of my community and High School. I sent a mid-year update with multiple hard-earned new achievements (including receiving a ROTC Scholarship and developing multiple new programs at my school), an extremely good mid-year grade report while also asking my mentors for help and advice.
I completely understand that every application has comparative weak-spots when reviewed in the context of an extremely large applicant pool; therefore I also understand my chances as an out of state student are slim. However, seeing RD applicants who have written-off William and Mary accepted while ED applicants like myself are denied (even when we have demonstrated our commitment, re-affirmed our strengths, and continued to stay in regular touch with the admissions department during recent months) is beyond devastating. It seems to me students like myself who are persistent in their deferment and continue to update and improve their application should be considered on a higher plane than students who simply decide to apply, go through the supplement motions, and hit submit on the Common App.
The experiential lesson learned by those underclassmen who are already asking me for college application and scholarship advice is that your amount of devotion and amount of effort matter little in the college application process. Of course I will work to change their ideas on this issue so they might still keep the “good way” of doing things alive, but it is hard to change the ideas of my younger classmates who have seen my efforts and cheered me on for more than a year without any positive result from my first choice school, despite the odds.
Anyway, this is just my perspective on the admissions process for deferred out-of-state student. It seems like the emphasis of treating all applications evenly has fallen victim to the law of unintended consequence; it seems to me that effort, persistence and commitment to the school should be something considered more heavily in the admissions process.
Again, thank you for your hard work and constant updates!
*deferred
I apologize for the typos
@Donna, while the transfer process is selective, it’s not to the same degree as the freshman process. Generally we admit 40-45% of the transfer students who apply. Please let your daughter know we appreciate all she’s accomplished and it was not for nothing. We know it may feel that way now but we do hope that passes. If W&M remains a top choice we can definitely work with her as a prospective transfer student.
@Taylor, thank you for sharing your thoughts. We do our best to give every applicant the benefit of the doubt and we also do our best to be as thoughtful and thorough as possible in our review process. We know that given this process is human, we will admit some students who aren’t the right fit and miss out on some who are and that’s a side effect no one likes but an inevitable one unfortunately. That being said we have no doubt all of your efforts will pay off in the end even if that end isn’t W&M. We are so sorry that things didn’t work out as you planned but we do wish you all the best and sincerely appreciate your thoughts.
I applied ED. Got deferred. Then got rejected. I had pretty poor grades in my junior year – but I picked it up with outstanding grades (my senior year GPA is over a 4.6). My junior year GPA was the only thing that held me back. I had everything – and I mean EVERYTHING else – great scores, arts supplements, unique essays, good recommendations, plenty of diverse extracurriculars, I even painted a picture of the campus. But I don’t mind that I got denied.
But what I do find hilarious is that people at my school had way less GPAs and SATs than mine got waitlisted. But of course – as always – there is some unique subjective factor that apparently makes them stand out.
@Phil, so sorry to hear that. We also know that knowing that peers got more positive decisions is never a fun thing. While this is definitely a topic of much debate, many believe that ED defers were essentially waitlisted when they were deferred. To waitlist them again feels almost cruel. Some students and counselors agree, others do not. Definitely a very tough call we know.
Hi! So, I’ve been denied at William and Mary and not only am I completely crushed but at a loss of what I should do next. William and Mary is the only college that I felt fit me, and so I actually was wondering if I could ask for some advice…
I definitely plan on re-applying to William and Mary (I will not give up.. I am determined haha) and am not sure if I should try to transfer from JMU or a Community College. I don’t know if it will hurt me if it shows I am at a Community College verses an accredited school like JMU, but I’m not sure if I’m willing to spend the thousands and thousands of dollars of a school I’m not head over heels in love with (how I feel about William and Mary). I would greatly appreciate your advice and thank you for all your time and effort put into this admissions process, I understand it’s just an extremely competitive pool and I’m hopeful for a second shot at getting in.
@Hopeful, you have to make the choice that’s best for you about where to attend school next year. We’re happy to advise you either way based on your decision but we wouldn’t want to make that choice for somebody. What we would encourage you to do is research JMU, go to an admitted student event and see how you feel about it. You could really fall in love with it.
Hey! I’ve never written on a blog before – here it goes!I got denied admittance to W&M, an outcome I wish I could say I handled better. It was devastating, for W&M was my first choice school. However, now I’m on the search for a new number 1 school! Having lived in Scotland, and knowing that W&M has a joint degree programme with St. Andrews, I applied to St. Andrews, and got in to the university as a full time student! So, I was hoping for some advice. If I thought W&M was the perfect fit for me, would St. Andrews be able to compete with that?
Thank you so unbelievably much for the opportunity to even apply to W&M. I feel honored 🙂
@Emilie, that’s a hard question to answer. St Andrews and W&M definitely have some similarities which is why we’ve joined together for our joint degree programme. It’s a great school with a lot of history. There are definitely differences in course offerings, teaching style, etc. We’d encourage you to visit if you can. If not, contact them and see if they can put you in touch with a current student via phone or email. Review their blogs, social media, etc. Hopefully then you can get a better sense of the campus and whether or not it’s a good fit for you.
I got wait listed and i must say I am really sad. I have friends who got in an have no interest in going to William and Mary but I do and I didn’t get in. One of my friends had a gpa of 3.4 and got accepted. I have a 3.8 and didn’t get in?
@Disappointed, we absolutely get where you’re coming from. Many students have commented on these blogs about their interest compared to their peers’ interest in W&M. All we can say is that we actually have tour guides in our office (people who love W&M so much they volunteer to show others around campus) who tell us they weren’t originally interested in W&M but gone won over as admitted students so you never really know. And yes, there are definitely students who got in who don’t seem to have similar credentials. There are numerous reasons beyond GPA/SAT that we might admit students that come into play (essays, an interview, extracurricular activities, athletic or artistic talent, legacy connections to W&M, background, experience, etc.) that are not always easy to discern without reviewing an application.
None of that helps to make the disappointment fade but we hope it provides some insight into our process. And at least you receive a waitlist offer so a clear sign that you were a competitive applicant.
@Laura and @Taylor–We feel your pain and couldn’t have expressed it any better. My core concern as a parent about this process is the skewed marketing of any school towards very impressionable 17 year olds. After our initial visit to W&M (plane flights and accomodations), the admission office sends an e-mail survey asking if we’ve considered the ED route. My daughter immediately takes this as a personal prompt to apply ED. This is followed by another suggestion to have an interview–because you wouldn’t want to “that applicant” that disrespects W&M’s “optional” interview policy (and yes, more plane flights and accomodations)! This is followed by earnest communications on what an interesting and unusual candidate you are with a solid chance of admission. I’m not even the 17 year old and I was completely sucked in! Then came the ED deferral, followed by “what strong mid-term and supplemental materials you have.” My point here is, W&M, while you may not think you’re promising anything, this “perception” becomes a reality to these kids, and we, as their parents, are left to pick up the pieces of their broken dreams. In the future, I implore you to act more responsibly when dealing with these young adults.
As the parent of a child who was accepted at W & M yesterday from out-of-state, I do not know what is worse: (1) Her being denied, or (2) Having to tell her, despite all her hard work over the past four years, that there is no possible way we can afford to pay the $50,000 per year for her to attend. Unless I’m greatly mistaken, we will not be receiving any money whatsoever from W & M.
@T., if you applied for financial aid you will hear from that office within the next week or so. That’s where were invest most of our funds (need-based aid). The scholarships we do make available were awarded a few weeks ago though they are not overly abundant. You can of course always contact your daughter’s financial aid officer if you have any questions.
@Laura, we appreciate your feedback and criticism. We do our best to express the W&M experience in our communications but also try very hard not to give false hope. We did just review our post-tour survey. There’s one question that asks how the tour impacted your perception of the College. One of the choices on the drop-down menu is that it convinced you to apply ED. Is that you’re referring to? That’s asked to help us assess the strength of our tour but isn’t designed as an encouragement. And we apologize if you got misinformation about the interview. We’re very upfront about it being optional and that there’s no need to pay additional travel funds to participate; in fact only 20% of our applicants interview.
Can you let us know which communications you felt implied “solid chances of admission”? Again, we are pretty upfront about our selectivity and do not ever want to convey admission chances knowning we could certainly deny any given student. Could you also let us know what communication she received about “strong mid-term grades and supplemental materials”? We don’t send any communication to deferred students. So understanding what you’re referencing will help us reassess.
Thank you for your honest and candid response. I see that I am not greatly mistaken about my daughter’s chances of receiving any money whatsoever from W & M. We will qualify for no need-based aid. And, as you explained, scholarships are not overly abundant and have already been awarded. Lastly, financial aid officers can do little or nothing to change this. Thus, we are left with deciding whether to pay $200,000+ for the “privilege” of attending W & M, or going elsewhere. Unfortunately, the choice will likely be elsewhere. I cannot understand how any college can honestly defend $200,000+ for an undergraduate degree. So, who ends up attending W & M? The answer is mostly children from wealthy families, children from poor families, or athletes. Us middle- income earners are left out in the cold, so to speak. Unless of course we mortgage our future, saddle are child with debt they can never hope to pay off, or both. So, once again, I ask the question: What Is worse? Being denied, or having to tell your child that there is no reasonable way she can attend W & M. Thank you for allowing me to vent. It is extremely frustrating to have your child’s dreams crushed, even though she has been admitted, through no fault of her own.
@T., we certainly understand that financing a college education isn’t easy and all colleges and universities are aware of their rising costs. We try our best to diversify our class economically and do have students from all income levels attending W&M. Unfortunately, colleges are very expensive to run, especially when they focus on the individualized experience of the student like W&M does. And public universities, like W&M, tend to be a bit more underfunded given state financial crises and the discounted tuition granted to in-state students. Not to say that discounted tuition isn’t justified, it just means our tuition revenues may be less than some other schools. We do everything in our power to assist students in financing the cost of a W&M education but we also realize that more affordable options may be available to some students and we certainly don’t begrudge any family choosing that route. We’re certainly sorry your child may not be able to attend W&M but that doesn’t change the fact that we were happy to offer her admission because we felt she had so much to offer.
Just as a general FYI to all who have concerns similar to @T.’s, any student can of course bring any college saving funds and outside scholarship to W&M. Those funds are generally portable and can certainly assist in financing any college education.
your comments a few comments above directed @laura should have gone to @disappointed because she was the one who posted those thoughts to which you responded — I assume she read your comments anyway. I understand it’s hard to keep all of us apart — at this part of the process one frustrated parent seems a lot like another. I am posting to say to @taylor we share your pain. My daughter has never posted on facebook or twitter any of her college acceptances (even scholarships) because she thinks it looks like she’s bragging and she’s so careful that it might make others (who maybe didn’t get into where she did but who really wanted to) just feel bad. But facebook is on fire with kids she knows — again several who said they aren’t going to W&M — announcing this acceptance among others. And yes, the GPA thing is hard. She knows kids who didn’t get serious (their words) until their junior year whereas she always worked hard and has nothing but As all of high school. I guess her SATs could have been better, but two kids she knows who were accepted to W&M had parents who were able to pay for months of SAT tutoring and when I say months, I mean every Saturday for months: one person 7 months, one person 5. We know there is always someone more impressive on paper (SATs, extra curriculars etc), but @Taylor we are with you on this. If someone goes ED, maintains contact, commits their sincere level of interest this should count for something. I apppreciate @admit it hosting this blog, but nothing they can say will erase what feels like an injustice to so many kids who were qualified (heck they were deferred and admissions said a deferral meant they were qualified) but in the end weren’t good enough yet they personally know peers who did less, worked less, are less committed to W&M, but still get to go if they decide to.
@Laura, our apologies. Yes, we did mean to respond to @disappointed. @disappointed had respond to you and we just got a bit mixed up.
And we do absolutely believe that applying ED counts for something. We’re not dismissive of that commitment at all. That being said we cannot admit everyone who applies ED unfortunately. And we are absolutely aware that our decisions may feel unfair. All we can guarantee is that the process is fair and we do our best to ensure that it is. And we are truly sorry to be the cause of heartache and disappointment to so many terrific students. It’s not something we take lightly in what we do at all, and while we know that does not at all lessen the disappointment we hope our students and families trust that it is the truth.
I believe that you do care and you do feel bad for disappointing many deserving students. Your attendance to this blog and your taking the time to respond to several people, repeatedly, shows that you take this all very seriously. I wish it could have been different. I pray it turns out well.
As someone completely unaffiliated with W&M, I would like to point out that while a high level of disappointment over rejection is completely understandable, it is worth bearing in mind that the reason many people apply to W&M in the first place is its level of exclusivity and the overall quality of the institution…including its faculty, students, and even its admissions staff. Rejection is invariably painful, but when applying to such a well-regarded college as W&M, to have high expectations of getting accepted is probably a case of putting the cart before the horse. Also worth pointing out is that for the out-of-state acceptance situation, bear in mind that out-of-state college costs are typically a great deal higher than in-state costs. You might even say it’s an industry standard. While those costs may be prohibitive, it is important to remember that they have remained largely constant, with minor variation, from year-to-year, meaning that there should have been no surprise over the impending cost of an Undergraduate degree at William & Mary. Just my two cents, for whatever they may be worth.
@Anon, thank you for sharing your thoughts. We appreciate all of the perspectives people are lending to the conversation.
While Anon makes a point in response to my posts that the cost of W & M should not be a surprise to a future applicant such as my daughter, what is a surprise is that no money is offered whatsoever, despite these colleges having large endowments among other things. Just my two cents, for whatever they may be worth.
Shouldn’t there me some incentive, however small, other than the prestige of the College to entice bright young students and their families to travel great distances to attend the College? Or, is the prestige of the College the only merit awarded. This is the part that takes getting used to. Throw me a bone, so to speak.
@T., we are aware that comparatively we do not offer as many scholarship opportunities as our peer institutions (most of which are private with far larger endowments than we have). We are also pretty up front about the fact that we have very limited scholarship opportunities. We are very much committed to fundraising for additional scholarship opportunities. We know that doesn’t help current applicants but we are committed to being able to better assist future prospective students. Financial Aid of course is a far more regulated process and we do as much with that as we can.
@T., we’re not entirely sure we know what you’re asking but we hope that the experience we can provide (residential campus, small classes, great research opportunities, leadership development, tradition, bright and engaged student body, etc.) is what attracts students to attend. If you’re instead asking why can’t we provide some sort of merit award to every admitted student, well then that award would lose its meaning entirely.
I had the opportunity to sit in on a workshop that was run by admission people from W&M, UVA and Davidson. We were given a set of four real applications (with names, high schools and other identifying characteristics redacted) from a previous year and told that there was only room for two of them. I really didn’t understand how tough these admission decisions were until going through this. Everyone of these applicants had great stats that gave them the “right” to be admitted to these schools. There were many “admission committees” in the room, all doing the same exercise with the same applications. It was amazing how heated the conversations got, even though there were no real decisions at stake. I walked away very impressed at the time and effort that is put into the admission decisions. These schools simply are not large enough to hold all the great students that would like to attend. That is one of the things that I (and most alums) love about W&M – its small size.
I am sorry that you did not get a Good News email but the fact that you had the stats to apply means you will go far.
Now fall in love with a school that is lucky enough to have gotten you and never think that this one disappointment defines you. You are the only one who can define you- go do your best.
@Happy Alum, such a great point. We wish we could bring case study workshops to every high school because it’s so hard to understand the strength and complexity of the pool from the outside. Thanks for posting.
A trend I am noticing in the postings above, that we, the parents, seem to be the ones blogging and expressing our sorrow over our child not being admitted. I have to say, its been a little cathartic to read other parents in the same boat as myself. This being my oldest child. I realize some things I will do differently w #2, and #3. Quite a learning experience. And interestingly, seems to be mostly OOS in the above posters, and more ED students deferred to get denied. But goes along w the stats that have been given to us. My daughter is also the high achieving child as all of you have stated…my most frustrating thing is that we will be IS in two months! TWO MONTHS and I feel like this decision could’ve totally been different. Pretty much stinks that my child (possibly) doesn’t get into her #1 choice due to my husband’s military career…and yes, I will throw that out there because that is one thing I learned in this….living overseas (not her choice to be here ), everyone said that is an asset. Schools LOVE to see this…yep, not so much. Anyway…thanks for letting us parents vent…and students too. Good luck to all of your students in their choices!
@Momofsenior13, we’re sorry to hear about your frustration. Schools, W&M included, definitely appreciate the diverse experience a student who has lived overseas can bring if they share that experience with us in their application but of course there are numerous other factors we consider. We recognize that being part of a military family can impact a student’s record and we certainly take that into consideration when making a decision. As another poster stated, the tough part about this process is that most of our applicants are high achieving. While being high achieving is often more unique in an individual high school it’s not unique in selective admisison pools. That’s what’s so hard for those outside the process to have context for and that’s often why decisions seems so hard to understand. We know that doesn’t soften the blow but we help it provides some insight as to why and how we make the decisions we do.
@T…having been in circumstances similar to yours, I can say unequivocally that WM is well worth the cost to attend. I looked at it as an investment in my daughter’s future that will pay much greater dividends than what I might have gotten back if the funds were parked in more traditional “investments.” There is always a way to make things work…consider every avenue for getting this done. Ten or fifteen years from now you will be glad you did.
@Dad of WM Student, so glad your daughter has had such a great experience at W&M! Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
Wow, to read these blogs and see the GPA’s of student’s accepted, some whom apparently have no interest in attending, makes not being accepted an even more crushing blow. I have dreamed of attending W&M Law School since I was 12 years old. That may not seem that unusual for some applicants however, I’m currently 48 years old! I finally earned my bachelor’s degree while working full time and dealing with tha pain from injuries received while I served as Marine. I still managed to earn a 3.74 GPA. I was confident that the school’s desire for diversity would prompt the selection committee to recognize the many unique merits of my application and what having me as a freshmen would contribute to the class as a whole. I still love W&M, but once I got over the initial shock and pain of rejection, I realized that it is truly the school and the freshmen class that lost. Unfortunately, the life experience I have can never be replaced by a fresh faced high school graduate or twenty-something student. I hope I am accepted by a school that recognizes that I AM the kind of student that they want, for W&M has let a true gem slip right through their fingers. Best of luck to all those accepted!
@Cheryl, we’re a bit confused. As someone with a bachelors degree you could not have applied for freshman admission at W&M. If you applied for W&M’s law school, we’re sorry you didn’t get in but that is a separate school. This blog is about undergraduate admission only.
After watching tears roll down my daughters face from her denial, I am wondering if there is a way to find out why she got denied. She has an un weighted gpa of 3.96, volunteers, works, sports, captain postitions etc. She is the only student in her high school taking 6 AP classes and still mainting her GPA. She is ranked 3rd in her class. I am just curious why we got a “no”
@crushed from watching my daughter cry, we’re so sorry to hear that our decision caused such disappointment. We know that being denied is a challenging emotional experience for many students. Clearly your daughter is a bright and accomplished young woman. The issue is that when applying to selective schools like W&M (remember, we admit only 1/3 of our applicants and even fewer out-of-state applicants), most of our applicants have similarly strong qualities. It’s not uncommon for our applicants to take 6APs or more, to be ranked very high in their class, to be super involved outside of class. A deny decision in no way means that your daughter shouldn’t be proud or isn’t accomplished, it simply means in our pool of incredibly strong applicants, her application didn’t stand out.
After watching my daughter cry her eyes out about her denial , I m curious as to why she didn’t get accepted . Is there a way to find out what she didn’t have to get in? She is ranked 3rd, she does clubs ,activities , volunteering, has many leadership rolls , works, etc. she is the only one in her school taking 6 AP classes and she is still maintaining her unweighted GPA of 3.98. How can I find out why she wasn’t accepted?
@Curious, your post is almost identical to @crushed from watching my daughter cry (posted earlier this morning). It appears to us that you have just re-posted your question under a different name. If that’s the case, see our initial response to your question posted earlier this morning.
@Curious, if in fact you’re the same person but trying to ask an additional question, just let us know and we’ll do our best to help.
It’s been several months since the message of being deferred was received, then the denial was sent just a few weeks ago. Of course, an ED applicant is disappointed because obviously they’re convinced W&M is the right place for them. However, once our daughter learned it wasn’t going to happen the way she planned, we got busy…and she got excited about other opportunities. Fortunately, the same impressive stats, essays, and recommendations reviewed by W&M were presented to several other worthy universities as well, therefore producing great offers from many others. As we worked through the process, it was admittedly puzzling to us as to why W&M didn’t see what the other admissions offices recognized and acknowledged by offering an acceptance. It finally occurred to us that W&M’s conclusion that THEY aren’t the right choice for my daughter is absolutely right. It’s not that my daughter wouldn’t succeed there, she would – without doubt. However, we now know “her” university will not only allow her to succeed academically, but she truly “belongs”‘ “connects”, “fits”… all those things that are difficult to describe, but very, very important. It still stings a little that W&M’s denial removed the choice, but maybe if they didn’t, it would’ve been the wrong one for my daughter. For many months I hoped that all kids were accepted in to the schools of their choice; now, I hope they all find their true “fit”‘ which we’ve learned, may be very different. The best to the Class of 2017 – represent “your” university and be proud!
@Not meant to be?, thanks for posting this very thoughtful sentiment and best of luck to your daughter. She sounds like she has a great head on her shoulders and will make whatever school she chooses incredibly proud!
Well my ED daughter was deferred and put everything she had and all her hopes into getting accepted reg.decision. She has five other choices and has revisited every school but nothing is clicking; she says no other school feels right. I sure wish she felt differently. I Have no idea what she will do but the disappointment is lasting and stinging and it is compounded by the fact that she knows several seniors in her class who were accepted to W&M and are not going to attend. She says why can’t I just have one of their spots?. She was strong enough to defer (she was competitive) but in the end just continues to feel she was not good enough. Long, painful spring.
@Laura, we’re sorry your daughter feels not good enough. That is certainly not the case. Sadly it’s hard to separate an admission decision from a judgement but please do not confuse one with the other. Your daughter is excellent and she will find her way at another school; we promise. However, we recognize that’s hard to see right now but we know she’ll have an amazing experience. It may not be the same as it would at W&M but that doesn’t mean it will be worse; simply different.
I decided to wait until after my son made his decision about which college to attend before posting on this blog. He was denied admission to W&M (his first choice) after being “recruited”, as he would say, since his freshman year. He took the PSAT during his freshman, sophomore and junior years (required by our school system) and started getting flooded with literature from many schools, but the only VA public university that sent him material was W&M. He received numerous brochures and postcard packets (you all know what I’m talking about), as well as an avalanche of emails from the Admissions office. Even we, as parents, received some of these emails.
As a resident of the Commonwealth, I would be most appreciative if W&M did not waste my taxpayer money but sending out such literature. If you are indeed such a selective school that bases its admission decisions on several criteria and not just an SAT score, then you might consider refraining from trying to “recruit” young, impressionable 14- and 15-year olds with such material. Perhaps it does not seem to W&M that you are intending to mislead, but that is, in fact, the undesired effect.
My son’s stats were adequate (decent GPA but not above 4.0, very good SAT scores, extracurriculars in sports & clubs, leadership positions, etc.) I honestly am not surprised that he as not accepted, although he was because he felt that W&M pursued him since he was a HS freshman (again, this is his perception). He would have been a great fit to the university, but W&M’s loss is JMU’s gain (accepted into their Honors Program). I know that he still feels the sting from denial at W&M, but he is looking beyond and looking forward to a bright future, as am I. But I would suggest that W&M reconsider their approach to recruitment (if that’s what you want to call it). I feel that your tactics are beneath the dignity of such a top-notch educational establishment.
@Looking Beyond, we’re sorry to hear that you and your son feel mislead. We actually send only one piece of mail to prospective students (the postcard packet that you mentioned). There are some mailings that sophomores and juniors can elect to receive but are not sent automatically. So we do our best not to overwhelm students with literature. We do of course maintain primary contact with students via email (which of course they can choose to opt out of). The only emails we send intentionally to parents are those regarding their son’s/daughter’s application status (of course there are times when a parent’s email address is entered as the student’s in which case they parent may receive our emails but that’s not our intention).
Most colleges and universities send mail and email to prospective students so as to help them learn more about W&M. Again our materials seek to inform prospective students but in no way make any guarantees of admission. And these emails and mailed materials are sent to any student who signs up to be on our mailing list so they’re very equal opportunity. We do appreciate your feedback and we can certainly try to provide more information about why we send email and may and to whom so students have a better understanding of the process.
Best of luck to your son at JMU.
Thanks for your quick reply to my posting. After reading my previous message, I realize that I sounded like an angry mom (I’m really not — no animosity on the part of either me or my son toward W&M). I understand the need for all universities to “advertise”, but in this day and age, students have many resources available to them. Especially as a “public ivy”, W&M receives an abundance of free advertising from the likes of US News & World Report, Business Week, Forbes, Kiplinger, etc. It doesn’t seem that the university should need to do quite so much of this yourselves. I just feel that the time, energy, money and resources allocated might be better used elsewhere.
BTW, thanks so much for maintaining this blog — it is definitely the best one out there! Your insights into the admissions process are helpful and humorous, and your responses to questions and comments are always thoughtful and tactful. Although I’m disappointed that my son wasn’t admitted to W&M, I have no doubt that his application was given a thorough and fair review by your committee. Thanks so much for the opportunity to voice our thoughts and ideas on this blog. I plan to continue to follow it, even though I no longer have any “skin in the game”. It’s just a blast to read — keep up the good work!
@Looking Beyond, we certainly didn’t think you were an “angry mom” (although certainly parents are entitled to take on that persona post-decision) and we do appreciate the feedback. While we’d love to think that everyone knows W&M, we still need to reach out to prospective students in Virginia and around the world. Just as it’s competitive for students to be admitted, it’s a competitive marketplace for colleges to attract students.
And thank you for your kind words on the blog. It’s great to know that people find it helpful and humorous. We will keep on keepin on!
Another option for students who had their hearts set on William and Mary but did not get in is to go through the guaranteed admission program with Virginia’s community college system (VCCS). If you take this option, work with your counselor and a counselor at William and Mary to ensure that you are taking the coursework you need.
@Liz, that is correct. We also have an agreement with Richard Bland College. We of course however also encourage students to consider the schools that do admit them and get excited about the opportunities there as we know there are so many wonderful collegiate opportunities available to students.
Will it hurt my chance for acceptance to W&M if I also apply for the joint degree program with St Andrews?
@Mary, not at all. Those are two separate applications and two separate decisions. You need to be competitive for admission to W&M to be considered for the joint degree programme but applying to both conveys no disadvantage.
Wonderful site you have here but I was wondering if
you knew of any message boards that cover the same topics talked
about in this article? I’d really like to be a part of group where
I can get opinions from other experienced individuals that share the same interest.
If you have any suggestions, please let me know. Kudos!
https://archive.org/details/TilaTequilaBackdooredAndSquirting